"When I looked at the emblem used by Madhusudan Dutta on the cover page of "Meghnadhbadh Kabyo" the mystery of that magnificent poem seemed to clear up. Suddenly I seemed to understand what Michael had wanted to feel, understand, express. Yet, curiously enough this emblem was ignored by scholars working on the poet". Dr. William Radice was holding open a copy of his doctoral thesis on Michael Madhusudan Dutta the poet who more than anybody liberated poetry of this land from the confines of traditional language and imageries. Whose own tortuous and brilliant life shimmers with the incandescence which only contradictions of Olympian proportions can fire.

The emblem which Radice shows us is an Indian version of the traditional heraldic coat-of-arms. The left of the emblem is an elephant (the West), the right a lion (India). Together they hold aloft a bunch of flowers (Shatodal) which is the corporate fruit of their joint labour. Under this is a shield with a sort of a Templar's Cross - very Christian and wreathing the shield are the words in Sanskrit, "! would rather die than fail to achieve what I have set out to do." Very Michaelish and one suddenly becomes aware that the angst unknown to 19th century Indians spills all over his literary pursuit.

William Radice's own involvement with Bangla language and literature has some familiar overtones with the usual crop of I.C.S. officers playing branch in the family tree. But then there are so many other I.C.S. beset Englishmen who mayn't even have heard of Tagore. Passion for another language other than one's own is always a mystery of sorts and Radice is no exception. He may be the only Englishmen who has been awarded a Ph.D. in Bangla from a British University. But as of now. as he explains, the study of Bangla in mother England is declining. Budget cuts, declining grants, losing out to something sexier like Latin, lack of interest in a language which hasn't produced anything interesting for decades, the list can go on. One gets an odd feeling hearing Radice talk in his faintly English tinted Bangla. So there is this Englishman studying and working on Bangla all the way out there in England. And it didn't get him a decent job either. He free-lances for the odd ministries and Councils who need the services of a Bangla knowing Englishman for this and that job, an odd translation here, a stray B.B.C. there, missus works hard, life goes on. And there is always Bangla a love affair, however clichetic or doomed it may sound.

Radice's passion is obviously Michael. Tagore's greatness is overwhelming, almost over-powering. The adoration of the poet sometimes threatens to suffocate. I sometimes don't recognise the man. I tell this to Radice. He smiles and doesn't answer. "My approach to Tagore is 27 holistic. I like to look at the whole poet. I don't want to segmentise him. I adopt the same attitude when I study Michael Madhusudan Dutta. "We keep hovering ever the evanescent, perhaps slightly mad genius of that Bengalee who almost single handedly justifies the comic excesses of the Young Bengal movement.

"Many scholars think that Michael's Christianity was an insincere act, an act of opportunism. Element of all this may well be there but there was definitely a lot more. He was also a man caught between two cultures, one which he craves for and another which he can't deny. Perhaps the best example of this is his "Meghnadhbadh Kabyo"

"Rama symbolises reason and logic, of cause and effect and homage to this idea. In essence he is the West, let us say the West as represented by the English, the ruling India. Ravana belongs to the ancient tradition, the tradition of the warriors. In their code he has committed no wrong but he is going to be punished by what cne may say is the logic of history and morality, the morality of Rama. Ravana's defeat in that sense is inevitable. Indian scholars have emphasised on the concept of "Bidhi" (fate) but I have felt that the idea of 'Paap' (sin) is more applicable here. One is paying for that. And remember the scenario is decidedly being written by the consciousness of Rama. It's a very complex treatment of a theme which is in essence the principle psychological image of M. M. Dutta".

"This concept of sin is very crucial to the understanding of Michael. He saw the "light" of Christianity destroying the "rotten citadels" of Hinduism. And he wrote a number of times about it. He accepted, rightly or wrongly the supremacy of the Anglo-Saxon race. This idea was the product of his education and subsequently his conversion under the aegis of Scottish Missionaries. It was their idea that: he echoed and their Christianity that he reflected. And that religion was a grim, guilt ridden Christianity brimming with hell-fire and damnation. This sense of sin and guilt asserts itself often and on, fighting with his natural bent towards a nostalgic pre-Vedic India It's a never ending conflict, a never resolved dilemma which caused considerable agony to and some superlative poetry from. him".

We ask if there is any problem of identification for him as a Westerner in understanding or relishing our poets. In a sense we are aware of the trifle banality of the question. After all this man is making the study of Bangla poets a matter of a lifetime but then readers do like to know all this. Radice replies with a certain amount of preparedness. Obviously he has faced this question before. "I for one like Michael to the magic of Wagner. His famous cycle of operas where a European is trying to understand and come to terms with his own vision of his nation's history. Michael is close to that. There is a Wagnerian resonance in him".

The conversation inevitably turns to Tagore. Radice is heard seriously in many circles because of his translation of Tagore, the major one attempted in 72 years. For that reason alone such a work would elicit attention. Radice has done a tremendously laudable job. In a way it has started him off on a Tagore vocation. Penguin has agreed to do a collection of Tagore's short stories. The success of the poems has earned him the opportunity to present Western readers another face of Tagore. He is going about his job very carefully. He is concentrating on what he calls the "Shilaidah stories (upto 1901). The stuff written during that time and reflecting a particular mood. He intends to project as much as possible the intrinsic humour of Tagore. The irony, the wit of wisdom. The collection will include excerpts from "Europer Chithi" (Letters from Europe).

He dwells more on the humourous aspect of different Bangla writers including Tagore and Michael. Even his thesis on the latter includes a large part on the humourous side of this grim often doom-ridden writer.

Dutta's satires are well known and the laughter they evoke have travelled all the years. This is an incredible achievement because little of what we write in this genre lives till the next decade.

But Radice goes beyond that. He talks of the "put-on", of the mimicry, of the not so gentle mockery of "Brajhango Kabyo" where he makes fun of all archs types, it is a poet who can laugh at others and himself. Radice says that there is almost a brilliant artificiality in it all. Something which angered Tagore and made him say so in print. But who can say what the age demanded from him Perhaps Viddyasagar would have understood and made it clear.

Tagore again enters the conversation. Radice talks about the awesome task of the poet in leading single-handedly the carriage of Bangla literature to contemporary pastures and fields. Of his faith and philosophy and also of his disillusion and despair. "Shantiniketan hasn't taken off the way he wanted it to. It was a dream and the dream content was very high. I think towards the end of his life he realised that his ideas were roaming in a blind-alley. He doubted himself. He knew it hadn't worked. Philosophy hadn't taken the world or even his own country by storm.

"And there was the element of idealism bordering on retrogradism in him. There was an element of defiance in him but also a kind of reaction. Tagore didn't wholeheartedly accept science. He wasn't excited by it. At the end of his life he was watching the end of his era of ideas. Technology perhaps brutally had asserted itself. His last years were not joyous years".

Deep Mahmud (occasionally of Dhaka Courier) asks about Tagore music and painting. Radice talks about his sketches as being the essential facets of the poet. Their importance lay in lying the poet's souls bare. As we talk Radice puts on a cassette. It is a recording of a programme he did for BBC on the theme. In it he explains the nature of Indian music before going into Tagore music itself. He enjoys talking about it. There is something almost physical that he achieves while describing the music and the background of the songs. Rajesri Dutt's mellow voice is incredibly beautiful. There is no harmonium to mimic the words. Radice feels strongly about it. Tagore never liked it he says. The purity of the voice haunts us for a long time. Then the gregarious icon of Nazrul comes into our voices.

For Radice it has been almost a discovery. He ranks Nazrul as among the five greatest poets of Bengal but more than that he finds Nazrul's energy awe-inspiring. His immediacy, his lack of purely poetic ambition and the music of his verse are more than exciting. But he would like to see more balanced and perceptive analysis of Nazrul. To look at him after peeling off the mythical layers.

The conversation rolls on Nazrul. Tagore comes back and leaves to make space for Michael, Amiyo Chakraborti, Jibannanda. We talk about small personal private joys and struggles, his Impending trip to Sylhet to meet the Bangladeshis whose relatives are "clogging" Thames (My words). Public and private memories are exchanged and re-told, contemporary Bangladeshi poetry is discussed, Shamsur Rahman. Hasan Hafizur Rahman all come in and step out to let others in again. The conversation never ends really. It's just postponed till we meet again.

The following interview-based article was published in Dhaka Courier dated 17 April 1987 W. Radice was visiting Dhaka and we caught him at his hotel. A few days after this was article published , I happened to meet him. He was happy with it, he informed.

Sadly, Radice's final decade was painful. He met an accident - hit by a truck - that disabled him and his mental functions were affected. He had major memory loss and had even began to forget Bangla language. Kaiser Haq informs - published in BDNews24- that he was bed ridden due to his disability. A terribly sad ending to a such a successful and productive life.